If Protestantism is True...
- the canon of scripture is the assertion everything else depends on:
- Sola Scriptura claims that everything for faith and holiness in contained solely in scripture and Priesthood of all Believers implies that each person should be able to do this.
- If scripture is all that is required for all knowledge of faith and holiness, then knowledge of the limits and boundaries of scripture is supremely important.
- Since all Protestants reject much of the decisions made before the canon was first defined in the early church, one cannot look to it to define the canon
- Picking and choosing various council's decisions to agree and disagree with smacks of being Ad Hoc unless one can define a clear historical event or line of reasoning why to accept some but not others (or other things those people believed)
- All arguments based upon Literary Criticism or "Criteria for Canonicity" are circular in nature. They assume the thing and then use it to prove itself. A believer in 300 AD could use none of them to determine what is scripture.
- I find no other way of sustaining the canon beyond claiming it as the root assertion of Protestantism.
- Yes, this puts us in the terrible position of an assertion that is spelled out in more detail here.
- Yes, this means I have no real basis to stand against a Mormon who claims their canon as an assertion.
- No, this doesn't make me feel much better.
- for at least 1100 years (formation of canon till reformation) the entirety of the Church, the body of Christ, was dangerously wrong on many important topics: Canon, Baptism, Communion, Church Authority
- What does this tell us about the providence of God? For 1100 years God chose to allow Christians everywhere to lack:
- A true understanding of scripture, which is "the sole and infallible source of truth about faith and holiness".
- A true understanding about Baptism, which is the act that scripture teaches us all believers should undergo. How many children were baptized as infants incorrectly over 1100 years?
- A true understanding about Communion (see below)
- A true understanding about church authority, following leaders who they believed to be the very successor of Peter. God allowed believers everywhere to follow leaders, who must not have been appointed, to lead them into error (see above).
- during those 1100 years many great Christians lived and died, none of which the Holy Spirit either told or had the courage to object to these incorrect beliefs strongly enough to be recorded in history.
- I just finished a study on Francis of Assisi and even if one tenth of the historical record is true, this was a man who sought to follow Christ more fully that I ever could.
- The article here has a quote from Francis which seems to imply he very much believed the church's teachings on communion.
- While I can find records of many of the heresies of the time, none outside a dispute about the "Real Presence" (communion) have any possible match with modern Protestant doctrines. [1 (see Berengarius section)]
While not directly flowing from the core assertions made by Protestantism, I believe the following also follows given mainline interpretation of scripture by protestants:
If Protestantism is True...
- Eucharistic adoration is disastrously wrong and very likely idolatry.
- Eucharistic adoration is the worship of communion itself, which is claimed to have the "Real Presence" of Christ: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.[2]
- The charge of idolatry is a charge of treason itself within the Christian community. No higher mistake could one level against another to claim they are worshiping something that is not in its nature God Himself.
- Catholics everywhere since 1264 (Transiturus De Hoc Mundo) are guilty of this.
- It was not until the reformation (240 years) that this was corrected. God allowed a vast majority of Christians everywhere for 240+ years to unknowingly be in such a state.
- If this is true, what sort of heresies could I be caught in right now? If for 240 years God allowed believers in all of the Christian lands be guilty of such a serious error, what hope do I have?
The more I study about Catholic doctrines and history, the more I realize how different Protestant are; which implies how wrong Catholics must have been for 1100+ years. If God allowed everyone living for 1100 years to mess up so much about the faith, does He really care about our doctrine at all? How certain, knowing what I know about the turbulent times of the reformation, do I think they got it right? It even took the generation after Luther and Calvin to fully reject Regenerative Baptism, Communion of Saints, and various beliefs about Mary.[3][4]
Here I end up again, with more questions than answers. Think my logic is faulty? My sources of information and history incomplete? I don't like these consequences very much myself, but I believe they must flow from the assertions the Protestant Reformation if it was true. Please write in comments, I'm searching for the truth and welcome any help I can get.
The comparison to Mormonism becomes unsettling, as they claim that for roughly 1700 years, the faith practiced by Christians was gravely erroneous on many many issues. Protestantism in effect claims that it was for 1000 - 1500 years. But both are really bad.
ReplyDeleteAlso, since all the Orthodox Churches affirm Christ's real presence, including the ones like the Coptic Church that schismed in the 400s, it means that Christians were wrongly believing that Christ was present in a piece of bread for over 1,000 years at least.
Dear Struggles
ReplyDeleteYour comments were excellent. I would like to share the following with you. Eight months ago I began my struggle with Catholicism vs Protestantism after listening to some of Devin’s podcasts. At the time I had just started writing a book that I plan to title “Searching For The Truth. My research and reflections on truth have taught me that we must keep our eyes on the big picture. Number one: God exists. If not, reality makes no sense. Number two: Jesus is the central focus of all history. If not, history has no meaning. Number three: Catholicism is the lynchpin that holds it all together. If not, Jesus was a fraud and we are all deceived.
The book I am writing will have three sections. 1. The Truth About the Nature of Reality. 2. The Truth About the Meaning of History 3. The Truth About the Catholic Church.
I have concluded that:
If Protestantism is True----then Jesus Christ is not the Son of God.
I did not come to these conclusion easily. I struggled greatly. I was in terrible anguish. So I know what it feels like to struggle with this issue. Nevertheless, I can promise you that if you are truly searching for the truth you will eventually conclude that either Jesus is not the Son of God or that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church that Christ built. There are no other options.
Jeff Simmons
1. 1100 years is irrelevant. God may have been saddened by this amount of time - who knows - he is God. His ways are higher than ours. Why does he not strike down everyone immediately when they accept a heresy? Why was Hitler allowed to live? Why were there wicked and evil kings and priests in the Old Testament? The line between immediately and 1100 years is under his providence and adds no weight to your concerns, IMHO. It seems very possible to me (and not at all troublesome) that 1100 years would pass with some set of people in ignorance. We don't have an accurate picture of ALL the people - just the history of what has been preserved. I imagine there was a remnant of people who 'got it'. This isn't necessary, however. God knows what he is doing. We're the ones who keep straying, thinking we've got it all figured out.
ReplyDelete2. God allows people to spend their entire lives under false teachings. That's God's problem. What about those who lived before Jesus? Why did God allow them to live under a different system? Why didn't God work it such that Jesus would have been given to us at the beginning? God's providence. His world, his people, his choice.
3. I am confident that you and I both have heretical thoughts or beliefs. Look at the definition of heresy. It compares your belief to an authority. The only authority that matters in the end is God (I hope even RCs would agree with this). I am absolutely convinced that our understanding of God is incomplete or even wrong in some great number of ways. Don't feel badly about that. Continue to seek God, read his word (at least the part that RCs and protestants believe in), talk with him, listen, and ask him to make you more like Jesus everyday. God will reveal sin in your life. God will reveal truth. God will reveal the places where your understanding of him is incomplete or wrong - in his good timing. God doesn't require that his children come to him totally clean and with complete knowledge of every detail of God.
4. We have been given all we need for life and godliness. I don't think what we need is in history books - I think it is in a living relationship with a living and loving God who LOVES it when we seek him.
There is a simple truth - the gospel. Jesus saves. He is God. He died for our sins. He rose again. He is in heaven. We are given the chance to confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. People need to hear this life changing truth. Let God draw others to himself as you share this truth along the way. How useful are you when you're discouraged and confused and struggling? You know all you need to know already. There will always be unanswered questions in our minds. Faith. I know enough to know faith in Jesus changed my life and I want to share that with others. There may be a time to debate all this other stuff, but to what benefit and what purpose? That's where I struggle the most trying to reconcile. I've sat where you seem to be: confused, struggling to understand, working through the issues and foundations. For what purpose? I was not useful during that time. I was not using the light God put inside of me to illuminate the path for others.
I have yet to see any debate about these things end. It goes on and on and touches all the same, familiar, tired topics. What. A. Waste. Of. Time. At some point, you realize you know enough and you walk in the faith he's given you and the place God has put you, listening for where HE guides you. Looking to see where HE is at work and following him there. The fields are ready. God's got some harvesting to do and he needs workers. Ask God if you're focused where he wants you focused. Only he knows that for you. I will pray that you would know God's direction for you and come to a resolution full of God's peace.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff for the comments. Here's some thoughts:
ReplyDelete1) You are technically correct. God could choose to leave us in ignorance forever and be just (look at the non-Jews during the Old Testament). And there could be a "remnant" of people who held onto "authentic" Protestant beliefs during the middle ages, but not recorded.
However, I don't think it is irrelevant. I generally assume in my picture of God that he wants men to come to knowledge of him (1 Timothy 2:4), and that bad information about him makes that more difficult. The idea that for a majority of the time after Christ, every recorded individual was deep in heresy, some of it idolatry, is hard to square with that. Either the Holy Spirit is fine with that or He tried to move but nobody listened enough to be recorded in history.
2) "God allows people to spend their entire lives under false teachings. That's God's problem." Well yes, and no. God for example allowed pretty much all men before Abraham to do as they would, along with period of time recorded in the book of Kings.
I agree that the large mass of people not interacted with by God in the OT and for parts of the NT is disconcerting, but the difference for me is that the Christians in the Middle Ages had the Holy Spirit, one who brings us into all truth (John 14:26).
All people without the spirit of God finding themselves in grievous errors is easier to swallow than all people with the spirit of God finding themselves in said grievous errors.
However, isn't some of the burden on Protestantism? They are the ones making the major claim that marks all of these people as having incorrect beliefs. If you have people doing X for 1000 years, and someone comes along and thinks we should do Y and that X is wrong, isn't the burden of proof on that person?
3) I agree that in the end the fundamental authority that matters is God and that we all might be caught in some heretical beliefs. God also doesn't require perfect understanding to be saved. I take comfort in that.
However, I would argue that me wresting with scripture and logic is what I'm doing right _here_, in this blog. I'm seeking to understand the canon, the history of the church, and the very character of God. I know that my view of God is at very best cloudy and distorted compared to the future (1 Corinthians 13:12).
As a Christian, I seek to commune with God, growing in understanding and strength. Part of that comes from reading His word in prayer, all would agree. As an example however, if Christ was truly present in Communion, I would be a fool to reject the opportunities that provides. This is one reason why I feel struggles of this nature are not waste of time.
4) "We have been given all we need for life and godliness." I agree, but let's take it a step further. Do you really need the OT for life and godliness? Wouldn't the NT be enough? How about the gospels? Don't you really only need one those to get through life?
Yes, I believe that God has given me enough to get through life right now. And you are correct, that core is enough for telling other the Good News.
However, philosophy and logic cut both ways. If Christians everywhere base all the truths you laid out on the assumption of the authority of scripture, it weakens our case. While not everyone is going to bring up the deep structural issues I'm struggling with, some will. I believe Christians need to wrestle with these questions, because they will be asked by Christians and non-Christians. If we can not explain clearly why we believe the bible is true, where it came from, and why we believe its authority, we have a great weakness in our witness.
(continues in next comment)
4.b.) "I have yet to see any debate about these things end. It goes on and on and touches all the same, familiar, tired topics. What. A. Waste. Of. Time".
ReplyDeleteI truly hope you are wrong, sir. Plenty of people appears to wrestle with these questions and come to peace and understanding. Devin, who commented above wrestled with similar topics and became Catholic. I'm sure others have gone to Protestantism stronger after thinking about such things.
But in the end, if I struggle for a long period of time on these issues, I don't believe I am being useless to the kingdom of God. He has called all of us to different roles, some to preach to others and some to think and wrestle. Theology wasn't called the "queen of the sciences" in ages past because it was useless.
tl;dr;
I agree that in the end, one must pickup ones pen and go out and share the Good News to others. However, wrestling about some of the fundamentals of Christian history and doctrine isn't a waste of time, and even strengthens our witness to others. If Christ really is in one church than another, or has rejected one church over another, I believe it is right and good to seek Him out.
Dear Jeff
ReplyDeleteI believe the reason Struggles is laboring over these points is because he sees something deeper. In an effort to help you see his perspective I would like to offer the following comments.
I respectfully submit that sometimes we lose sight of the fact that our particular world view is so much a part of us that we sometimes forget that there are competing perspectives. When this happens it can appear that we are essentially saying that truth does not matter – while at the same time – making very strong truth claims about God and the nature of reality. I say this in regard to your commentary. I truly understand where you are coming from and often feel the same way. However, in order to make my point I ask that you go back and read your commentary so you can see that many of the things you say are very strong truth claims. One of many examples is the following:
“I was not using the light God put inside of me to illuminate the path for others.”
I would ask this: How do you know God put light inside of you? What is your authority for bringing this light to others? What path are you referring to?
Your statement is loaded with preconceptions about truth and could have been made by a Muslim, a Mormon or a Lutheran.
An alternative perspective is that the Catholic Church is in fact the very Church that Christ built and was commissioned to bring the light of truth to the world.. If we examine what Catholicism teaches in regard to TRUTH and what it teaches regarding how someone is SAVED we find that there is a serious disagreement with everyone outside of the Catholic Church. Therefore, it is appropriate for Struggles to wrestle with this issue. Struggles is not so much concerned with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but rather: WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?
You also said: “I imagine there was a remnant of people who 'got it'. …God allows people to spend their entire lives under false teachings
Is that REALLY true in the sense you are stating it. Did God really allow the Church to be corrupted? Was there really only a remnant of people who got it? The point I want you to see is that you are making a lot of truth claims and then essentially stating there is no point in getting too deep into all of this.
Nevertheless, the question still remains. Is the Catholic Church the Church that Christ built? I say yes. If so, then wrestling with this issue is not a waste of time. In essence what you are saying is that Catholicism is wrong and your particular version of Christianity is right. This is the basic Protestant position. I strongly sympathize with your desire not to wrangle with these hard issues. I went through tremendous anguish when I wrestled with these issues. However, now that I have come through it I see that the problem is simply that I had a false notion of the Church and did not want to give up what I perceived to be the truth.
Unless the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ built then Christianity as a whole has no foundation. We are left with nothing more than subjective history and subjective doctrines. Either God was guiding the Church or He wasn’t. If not, then the very interpretations and truths you put forward have no foundation or basis to them. It is an ironic fact that if Protestants are right about the Catholic Church then they pull the foundation out from under their own feet and have no place to stand.
I encourage you to download the podcasts that Devin Rose has on I-tunes and listen to them. They are a good place to start. I once hated the Catholic Church so I was not easily convinced of its truth. It took much study and reflection.
Please do not interpret my comments as hostile. I deeply care about what you think and know you are a man greatly concerned with truth. I merely ask that you consider the possibility that the Catholic Church might actually be the Church that Christ built.
Jeff Simmons
Jeff page 1
ReplyDelete1. Look at 2 Chronicles 34. The people were allowed to live in error. Look! The scrolls! We’ve been doing it all wrong!
2. The old testament is full of bad, ungodly leadership for long periods of time
3. Slaves in America (or throughout time)
4. People in the jungle in Africa
5. David Koresh’s bunch
6. Mormons
7. Jehovah’s Witnesses
Furthermore, we only have brief accounts of what actually happened in history. Perhaps there were those resisting the RC church all those 1100 years who were: {ignored, going about their daily lives serving Jesus, put to death, their writings didn’t survive, etc.} Think about who controlled history when it comes to religion?
Anyway, I have no confidence or concern with the 1100 year argument. It means nothing. People stray. People groups stray. God lets them. Until God chooses to change things and raise up someone who will turn people back to him. Maybe Martin Luther was one such person. He was no more holy than David, Solomon, etc. Maybe God him anyway. He wrote one of the hymns we sang the last time I was in a RC church.
Now, to the bigger issue and the more personal search for truth.
I have a friend, Steve, who was raised RC. In his 30s he had a search for truth, as I had, and as you are having. He discovered he could not continue to believe in the authority, and thus the teachings of the RC church. Through his search, he became protestant, against the strong wishes of his family and his wife’s family. I have known Steve, his family, and his wife well for 12 years. He is a Christian from every measure I can imagine and judge.
Devin is my friend. I have spent a few years getting to know Devin and some intense time in face to face and email debate with him. Devin was an atheist, got saved in a Baptist church in college, and one year later joined the RC church. His story is all public on his blog. Devin is a Christian from every measure I can imagine and judge.
I had Steve and Devin both go to lunch with me together once a few years ago. These are two well-meaning, intelligent, thoughtful, studied guys with pure motives who I assess to be Christians according to what the Bible tells me. However, they reached completely opposite conclusions, did so carefully, and remain firmly entrenched where they are, confident in their choices.
I do not want to be wrong. I do not want to be misled. Whom do I trust? How do I know?
My testimony is that I found life in Christ – not breath and heartbeats, but spiritual life – purpose, meaning, intimacy, conversation, guidance, miracles, truth, fruit, victory over sins that I had been told and believed were impossible to conquer, … I learned I had to go ‘all in’. I had to surrender every area of my life to God – wife, children, money, faith, scientific mind and training, time, where I live, career, extended family, etc. This doesn’t mean these areas of my life were neutered or shut up or eliminated, but if God required from me my wife, my money, or me to go be a missionary in Timbuktu, I submit and obey – immediately and with joy. Previously, I had struggled with whether God even existed because I wanted God not to exist. I didn’t want to be judged for my sin, and I also did not want to live under a man made moral code.
I was compelled by reason to believe a creator existed (I do not have the faith to believe we randomly occurred). The God of the Bible is the ONLY reasonably defensible choice. When I read what was required (surrender), I paused, then said, “Well, if that’s what God requires, that’s what I’ll do, and I’ll see what happens. But, Lord, is there ANYONE who is living like it says in the Bible?” God immediately pointed me to a fellow who was trying. He and I remain close, 10 years later. It encouraged me to have someone else who cared and was trying – who was serious about surrendering to God. I’ve since met many others. I was in church my whole life, but it took 25 years for me to get serious and genuine.
Jeff page 2 (of 3)
ReplyDeleteHow can Devin arrive at the RC conclusion from protestant salvation and Steve arrive at the protestant conclusion from an RC upbringing? These aren’t arbitrary people on a blog. These are people in my life that I know and see – sometimes daily.
Following your list of concerns, it matters because if RC is false, “then Eucharistic adoration is disastrously wrong and very likely idolatry.” Why would I want to knowingly couple myself with idolatry? The Eucharist is just one issue of many, many issues I have been unable to overcome with reason or faith. I refer to the reason because those are the debates that are attempted all over the internet. I don’t think the debates end. I could choose to have faith in the RC church’s authority, but why would I do that if it doesn’t seem reasonable and it may result in idolatry (not just the Eucharist)? I have already been told my salvation, my baptism are valid according to the RC church. My understanding is that I’m not even at risk of purgatory! These are kind of silly and general statements, but the point is, are you allowing the enemy to steal your joy and peace – over what? The promise of a ‘better’ that may actually be an abomination to God?
My concern is following Jesus. I acknowledge the claim that “Jesus is in the Eucharist” and the sacraments and all that. Jesus. Him. He guides me and leads me. He told us he is with us always. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is in me. His real presence is here with me. Already. It reminds me of my first encounter with a Mormon who told me, “Hey, what do you know? I’m a Christian, too!” I said, “Uh. Ok.” Every RC will tell me, “Hey, what do you know? My concern is following Jesus, too!”
I don’t get it. Why do I need to ADD something else to DO? Something that might be idolatry? Something that might be a distraction?
I have one splinter left, that I acknowledge openly. The history of the canon is murky at best. There are competing theories.
Here’s what I know:
God has shown me time and again that God is real. Jesus was real. I truly believe the Bible contains the very words of God, intended for me. The Bible is food and water for my soul. It is alive. It says so, and I believe it, and I’ve experienced it. I testify to that. There is something different about the words there. The more I doubt it, the more it overwhelms me. The more I dive in, the deeper the rabbit hole goes into beauty, depth, order, consistency. I expect to spend my lifetime exploring it.
If my choices are:
1) Accept everything the modern day RC church says because they claim authority to have decided the canon.
2) Believe that God managed to get me all I needed for life and godliness. As a result, some portion of what the RC church (and every other protestant church) teaches and practices may be wrong or JUST a distraction.
I go with 2. This is a no-brainer. I know where my faith is placed. I know I’m not being manipulated by man. God has shown himself able to open my eyes, one day, one step at a time towards being like Christ. He may lead me to the RC church one day. It isn’t today. I will NEVER satisfy my hunger for an answer to every theological and historical question. “Why did God allow Job’s CHILDREN to be killed? Could a new set of children EVER make up for the specific ones he lost? Children aren’t like sheep or houses – these were PEOPLE that he had built a relationship with. I don’t understand. But, I accept and believe that God is big enough to know what he’s doing. My faith is in God. Why did God not make the canon clear by 70AD? I expect I’ll never know. My faith is in God.
I’m keeping my eye on the prize. I’m looking to see where God’s at work and I go there. If I need the real presence of Jesus, I ask him. I talk to him. I listen to him. He’s here. If I need confession, I share with my wife (some real tough ones here), or a trusted friend.
ReplyDeleteIt is such a big ball of twine to unwind all these threads.
This isn’t a debate-ready, reason-filled reply. It is my testimony intertwined with the key points, as I see them.
There is life in Christ. Perhaps some folks are called to the RC church to be missionaries there and some people are called to the protestant church to be missionaries there. I know where I am supposed to be right now, and everyday I ask God, “Why, who, where, when, what? Lead me, Lord. I will follow.”
Sorry to do things backwards. I don’t want to be accused of not responding to specific questions or replies. Here is the reply to the specific points brought up in reply to me ;-)
ReplyDelete> I generally assume in my picture of God that he wants men to come to knowledge of him (1 Timothy 2:4), and that bad information about him makes that more difficult. The idea that for a majority of the time after Christ, every recorded individual was deep in heresy, some of it idolatry, is hard to square with that.
Sure, that’s a fine general assumption. But, how does God go about accomplishing this? Why is 1100 years a bigger deal than 100 years or 10 years. Ultimately, it gets down to God’s sovereignty and providence. You’re free to question him, just as I do on Job, why it took so long to send Jesus (a majority of the time since creation, btw), etc.
I think you are applying your arbitrary rules to a God who is infinite. This is easy for me to square by saying, “God is God, he gets to choose, his ways are higher than mine, and sometimes he reveals to me why he chose a certain way.”
Jeff 2
ReplyDelete> Christians in the Middle Ages had the Holy Spirit, one who brings us into all truth
We have that Holy Spirit today, and yet some are or become Mormons, some Jehovah’s witnesses, some leave faith in Christ for lives of sin, financial gain, etc.
Even today, my testimony would be I know people I believe to have the Holy Spirit (ie. Christians) who are fully RC and others who are fully, adamantly NOT-RC. It _may_ be that the RC faith is pure, true, good, perfect, etc. It may be that God hasn’t removed the things in my life yet that prevent me from accepting that. It may also be that the RC church is a deception (or distraction) like Mormonism, prohibitions against any kind of dancing or alcohol, etc. How do we discern that truth?
I have no problem believing that people with the Holy Spirit can be deceived. God reveals to me all the time lies I have believed that kept me from knowing him better. I was recently returning to Texas from a trip to Rome and had a 24-hour travel day in front of me. I dreaded the security lines, bureaucracies, long flights, tiredness, luggage, etc. The day before, I prayed that God would allow me to do my travel day “well.” I believe we’ve been given everything we need for life and Godliness. Would Jesus throw a fit 18 hours into his trip if he got patted down at the Charlotte airport? The lie I believed was that I was destined to fail at some things – like 24 hour travel days. I chose instead to believe the promise that I had been given all I needed to do to look back on that day and say I had done ‘well.’ Maybe a lie RCs believe is that they need the Eucharist for the presence of Jesus. This is hypothetical. That lie sounds reassuring and comforting. Who wouldn’t want the real presence of Jesus? On the same trip we went to Jerusalem. The Jews believe (as I understand it), that the presence of God never leaves the western wall. That sounds like a neat idea. I felt no different presence of God when I touched that wall with my own hands than I do any other day of my life. Note: I DO feel the presence of God when I’m quiet and still enough to listen and not all worked up about all these unknowable questions all these topics are referring to.
I don’t feel like I (as a non RC) have a burden of proof. I am responsible for me, my wife, my kids (for a while). I’m responsible to share the life in Jesus that God has graciously allowed me to come to know. God changes hearts. I can’t debate an atheist or a Mormon into salvation. Similarly, I don’t think I can be debated into the RC church. Too many of my spiritual warning bells go off. I believe those to be the Holy Spirit because I’ve learned to recognize them. Perhaps I need recalibrating, perhaps the enemy is distorting my understanding, perhaps I’m immature. I ask God every day, all the time, to teach me, lead me, change me, refine me.
Jeff 3
ReplyDeleteI do feel like the RC church has a burden of proof to convince me why I should trust them solely and completely with EVERY doctrinal issue. I see a spotty history of internal disagreement and cardinals with personal positions opposed to the church’s position. I see a RC church that has declared that my vasectomy 10 years ago was sinful and that I should reverse it immediately, when I believe (not argument, but relationship built on faith) that God spoke directly to me and told me WHY he allowed me to have a vasectomy when I struggled to reconcile the heartfelt desire he restored in me to have more children once my sin and selfishness were taken care of. Note: I have since had a vasectomy reversal (God even used Devin to spur me on, thankfully I have humility to have accepted that) and I have an 8 month old son. Now, how in the world do I reconcile that God allowed me to have a vasectomy that he knew would cause me to be in sin according to the highest moral laws? The answer, I am convinced, was never to reverse my vasectomy immediately. I pushed on that door year after year, each time God gave me a firm “not yet.” This is irrelevant information to anyone else – it is my story – my testimony of God’s goodness, his mercy, his grace, his love for me. I can’t reject what God has shown me in light of a dubious claim of absolute authority – even if I can’t understand why God would allow some people to live in ignorance for 1100 years and I can’t identify a rock solid historical reason for why the canon we have is correct. Btw, I dispute that the RC’s have a rock solid historical reason, but that is a never ending debate with no answer.
I pray for Devin. I pray for RCs. I pray for my children? The prayer – that we would know the truth, we would use our gifts, that we would obey, that we would honor God, that we would be like Jesus more every day. The burden is on the Holy Spirit to draw all men unto God. Sometimes, I’m enlisted to present the good news of life, freedom, hope, purpose, salvation, victory over sin, and a God that loves me!
> if Christ was truly present in Communion, I would be a fool to reject the opportunities that provides. This is one reason why I feel struggles of this nature are not waste of time.
Yes, _if_ Christ was truly present. How can we know? Because we’re told. By whom? By the RC church that claims authority to tell us. What if Christ isn’t present and it is idolatry? Tread carefully, is my only advice.
In my opinion, these struggles are only a waste of time when you allow them to go too far. Faith is a part of how God designed our relationship with him to work. Faith in the RC church or faith in the God we all claim to serve – to guide you into what he wants for you.
Sure, if I knew Christ was present in the Communion, I would take it right now. If I knew my drawer contained a million dollars in cash, I’d open it right now and head to the bank. The burden is on proving that Christ is in the communion. Of course, we as intentional, devoted people will follow what God has made clear for us to do. Believing Christ is present in the Communion requires you to accept the complete authority of the RC church and all the other official teachings (which are surprisingly hard to nail down – it’s almost like you need lawyers on church law). Sorry, sarcastic remark. I don’t mean to be insensitive. It seems so obvious to me that the burden on the RC church is sky high and every attempt I’ve seen to defend it falls so far short as to be laughable.
Yes, Protestantism requires a faith in how the canon was formed – absent many facts. Well, that’s how God works in so many areas that require me to have faith, I have no problem producing that faith.
Jeff 4
ReplyDelete> If Christians everywhere base all the truths you laid out on the assumption of the authority of scripture, it weakens our case.
It isn’t our case to make. We don’t have to win. We have to share. The gospel – the word of God claims to do the work. The holy spirit changes hearts and minds. I’ve seen it happen in others. I’m ok not knowing every nook and cranny. I imagine some people could be called towards doctrine, history, etc. Perhaps I’m just not. I’ve done enough to know that my faith is credible and reasonable and that ultimately God is not totally knowable to me or anybody here. Why do I need to go to the end of every rabbit hole? Again – I know all I need to know already to live fully alive right here now. The Holy Spirit is here, with us. It is a living, personal, real relationship that Jesus offers – that guides me on my own path through my own lies, misconceptions, selfishness, gifting, etc. to be more like Jesus.
I don’t abandon reason. I don’t abandon thinking about things. I am VERY careful about whom I trust to tell me what I should believe. I look for fruit. I look for Godliness. I look for evidence of Jesus oozing from their life. I look for light. I look for God’s peace. When I look at the RC church and its fruit and history, I struggle through that. What I’m looking for just isn’t there. I understand people are fallible and Billy Graham, Adolf Hitler, and Pope XYZ are all fallible. I’m being asked to alter my faith and overrule/augment/add on to what the Bible tells me. By whom? By an organization I have trouble seeing as worthy of that responsibility. May God guide me in my discernment. I don’t mind authority. I would love to know the answers to many of these questions because the answer was already infallibly defined. I cannot generate the faith and turn off the reason sufficiently to cross that chasm and accept the RC’s claim of authority.
I will share the truth of Jesus and what he has done in my life. I know enough. We agree with the NT part of the Bible the RCs have. Why do they have it also? Were they right? Do they get credit? Maybe, maybe not. Does that credit extend to inerrant in every doctrinal decision for all time? I have a hard time extrapolating that. I can get saved with a single scripture or just John or however God wants to do it. None of this is designed to be convincing. I believe there are subtle lies throughout the walk towards RCism. The whole thing seems ridiculous on its face to the reason in me. Maybe I’m just dumb.
Jeff 4 (and final)
ReplyDelete> we have a great weakness in our witness
We already have a great weakness in our witness. Us. Our sin. We are imperfect. God can use an ignorant leaper who knows nothing and just got healed, a child, an engineer, or a prostitute. I’m not trying to win a debate. I’m not selling me. I’m offering the free gift of Jesus, as it was freely given to me. It sells itself. It will be mocked, accepted, rejected, or impugned by others by their own choice. There is no burden on me. I don’t need to take a class first. I need to share what Jesus has done for me.
> Plenty of people appears to wrestle with these questions and come to peace and understanding. Devin, (…) became Catholic. I'm sure others have gone to Protestantism stronger after thinking about such things [That’s me!]
My point isn’t that wrestling is bad – it just has to be realized for what it is – a journey – that shouldn’t last forever. Ask God how much longer you will need to wrestle with this. Ask him to remove in you stubbornness, arrogance, ignorance, etc. You will not reach the end by facts and reason alone. You will ultimately trust someone’s version of history and their interpretation and you will go that way. Or, you throw up your hands in despair and come to believe that God doesn’t exist (I know several of these folks.) Or, you say, “I don’t know many answers, but I know Jesus and I’ll follow him as best as I know how and try not to be distracted from following him by ANYTHING – including religion or doctrinal disputes.”
Just like the 1100 number I keep harping on, we make up tests for faith in God. 1100 is too big, therefore xyz. God can’t be like this so therefore abc. There must be a rock solid answer to where the canon came from. The RC church claims such and such so 123. When the conclusion requires complete submission to and trust in the RC church of today, you might want to examine your motivations and your assumptions.
> If Christ really is in one church than another, or has rejected one church over another, I believe it is right and good to seek Him out.
Sure – I’d like to know which side Christ has chosen, too. I imagine Joshua: “God are you for us or for our enemies?” I wonder what God’s answer is. I imagine when I get to heaven I’ll find out because it seems unknowable to many here on earth. Actually, it seems knowable that it is NOT the RC church. In how many ways am I wrong/heretical from God’s perfection? Ask me tomorrow, and there will be a few more that I’ve learned of today, I’m sure. After my posts yesterday, I prayed that I would be patient and profitable, speaking only that which would build the body up. This post is partly for Devin, too ;-)
Jeff responding to Jeff Simmons 1
ReplyDeleteYes, I make truth claims. I recognize there are competing perspectives. I’ve, in my life, deconstructed everything I believe down to the lowest level claims (gravity, existence, etc.). I know where my faith is and where my reason takes over.
I make truth claims unabashedly. You are welcome to argue with them. I may or may not respond. I may be wrong. Jesus was careful in his arguments with people challenging him on everything, and he is much wiser than I am. I do what I can with what I’ve been given.
My truth claims are derived from the Bible.
I recognize that the origin of the canon of the Bible is an important question to some people. It was to me, too. Is it manmade? Is it corrupt? Is it useful? Is it true? How do we have it? What does it claim? Who put it together? Why do others have more books or less books or different translations?
I am asserting that all the nuanced answers to these questions cannot be answered satisfactorily by reason alone. At some point, one shifts to faith to answer the question. I have chosen to not put my faith in the RC church of today as the one to whom I owe a debt worthy of my submission today.
I have instead chosen to recognize, against my will, that the words that claim to be from God in my good old Protestant Bible (remember – the same NT) are alive and amazing. They aren’t words. They are alive. I didn’t want to believe that.
So, here is my faith foundation: there is a creator. He has revealed himself in everything, including the Bible that I was blessed to have in my hands and be able to read. I have come to know him, and I know him more each day. He has changed my life forever. Everyday gets better. There are questions about why he didn’t make it more clear how we got the Bible. Why didn’t he etch it on titanium plates that we could view in a museum in all possible future languages? I don’t know and will never know.
I have seen the fruit – the words of God – and I accept and believe and I have all I need for life and Godliness – a relationship with God, the Holy Spirit, etc.
Thus, I have chosen to put my trust in the Bible - essentially the same Bible that RCs believe to be true and divine and inspired. I recognize there are differences. I recognize that potentially Hebrews, Ruth, whatever may not be in God’s Bible in heaven. How can I know? I trust that God will guide me. I understand that freaks the ‘reason’ people out. I believe in reason AND faith, just like the rest of you appear to. I’ve spent a lot of time diving deep on the reason side, finding myself unable to get satisfactory answers, but KNOWING that the Bible is alive and different than anything else I’ve ever seen. So, I identify where my faith is, recognizing that God will grow that faith and move it where it belongs.
jeff responds to Jeff Simmons 2
ReplyDelete> What is your authority for bringing the light?
I don’t need authority other than God’s commandments to me to share the news and his personal direction to me to share with person XYZ or build a relationship with person ABC.
I am not out to win – this is God’s war. I obey. I play my role. God chooses to use me (and you). I don’t need a degree, a designation, or a membership card. I need the name Christian, little Christ, Christ follower. That’s it. I’ve got it. So do you.
> my statements loaded with preconceptions that mormons, etc. could make
Yep, I recognize this. This is God’s battle to win. We have all we need. If Mormons can’t see how ridiculously wrong they are to put their faith in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, then I can’t help them. Having said that, God may call me to share his light with a Mormon and may require me to go deep into Mormon vs. Christianity. He has on several occasions. I present the truth. I show them where I believe their error to be. They argue with me. Just like Devin and other RCs. OK. If God gives me something else, I’ll speak it to them. I can’t argue someone into salvation. It isn’t my job. The gospel – the truth – the words of Jesus are sufficient to do what God wants to do.
> preconceptions
I would challenge your position of me that I don’t realize I have a position already. I am thankful for the ‘heads up’ for me to realize I have one, but I understand that. This was not a position arrived at blindly. When I was 25, I was willing to throw away my taught faith in everything and sadly, hopeful that I could become an atheist – specifically because the useless Christianity that was filled with sin and rules and guilt was nothing but a burden to me. It turns out I was believing a lot of lies and not willing to surrender. I know where I’m coming from and why I’m here. I’m passionate, but confident I’m where God wants me.
> An alternative perspective is that the Catholic Church is in fact the very Church that Christ built
Yep. Another perspective is that the Mormon church is, or that Jesus was also a Buddhist. Each of these are claims that must be investigated. How long should I investigate Buddhism? I investigated it long enough to know it was worthless as a credible explanation for our creation. For how long should I investigate the claims of the Mormon church? Long enough to recognize the same thing. For how long should I investigate the claims of the RC church? I investigated them long enough to know that it was not sufficiently credible and had a much higher likelihood of damaging the relationship with God I had come to know apart from the RC church. I was not convinced to any degree of confidence. May God have mercy on my soul.
For how long should ‘struggling’ wrestle with this? I don’t know. Devin often quotes Jesus from John 17: “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one,” Sure. I agree with this. Let us be one in spreading the gospel of Jesus – setting captives free, living life fully such that the light of Jesus shines through all of us.
My encouragement to ‘struggling’ is that he very well may have done enough – realize there are fields ready for harvest and move on. Realize you’ll never know. Realize you’re creating man-made goals and man-made tests and then drawing incorrect conclusions. (1100 years, therefore the RC church is not in error.)
I HATE to see people of faith distracted by ANYTHING. My wife reminded me yesterday of the parable of the sower & seed: “And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.” I hate to see believers choked.
> remnant. Is it really true? Did God allow the church to be corrupted? Only a remnant?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think God would not allow the church to be corrupted. Were the Jewish leaders in the time of Jesus corrupt? Did David do foul things? Could Saul prophesy and then later try to kill David repeatedly? Could Moses be sentenced to never escaping the desert? Why is this hard to believe? I don’t like to believe it either. It isn’t how I would have scripted it, but I think there are some presuppositions here as well. God is God. He gets to choose.
Remnant – could have been millions, thousands, tens, or one. Noah was in a pretty small remnant. This is not at all hard to believe. I’m merely attacking the 1100 years in the dark business – something that is easily and obviously refutable unless you continually apply your own set of rules and judgment to what God must have done.
> making a lot of truth claims and then saying there’s no point in getting too deep
I covered the truth claims part. I’m saying be careful and recognize when you go too deep, you can start applying your own biases and get yourself trapped and come to the wrong conclusions. I’m an outside observer who has already been through this maze of discovery. If you KNOW Jesus, you know how to recognize fruit, what’s profitable, what’s a distraction, etc. I’m suggesting you’ll never get to the bottom of every question and those that are answered may not be answered to your happiness. For example, if the answer is that God allowed 1100 years of false teachings, then accept it and move on. On what basis can you reject that answer? I contend none. That goes back to the whole RC church authority question – which is where everything hinges. There is no satisfactory answer to that question that results in a credible and reasonable faith in the RC church of today, IMHO. This is the only point that matters – in this whole discussion.
jeff responding to jeff simmons 3? 4? I don't know. Stupid 4096 character limit
ReplyDelete> [Protestants] pull the foundation out from under their own feet and have no place to stand.
I dispute this. This does not follow from any argument that I’ve seen. The whole black and white thing makes the choice easy, as far as I’m concerned.
The words of God I have read are alive and real. Something supernatural is going on on this planet. We got here somehow. None of this requires the RC church to be trustworthy.
I stand on my faith that God is real, he created me, and he has revealed himself to me and offered me a relationship with him and eternal salvation. That gift is freely offered to all. That is where I stand. I do not require standing on a foundation of the authority of the RC church. It sure would be easier in some ways if I saw it as a sturdy foundation, but I do not see it that way after trying sufficiently.
There are several themes running through your statements that tell me about a RC world view.
I do not need an authority other than God. I do not have to convince someone or drive a debate opponent into the ground and win (even gently). I know enough. I saw enough to show me there was reason behind how I got what I was reading. The words that God claims to inspire are then sufficient to tell me who God is.
This is why I think the line of thinking that ‘struggling’ is on seems to me like it has gone far enough. If you have experienced God and know he is real, then you know enough to press on with becoming Christlike. If you cannot have faith in God because of unknown questions about the canon, then ask God to give you the faith to move on and give you peace and tell the enemy to shut up. You’ll never have all the answers. You don’t have to.
Worst case for a believer who rejects the authority of the RC church – you go to heaven (skipping Purgatory). Maybe you have less crowns. Maybe you get a seat farther from Jesus in some giant hall. Who is to say this won’t happen as a RC?
Who says I have to have an authority in my life that the RC church desires to fulfill? Who says 1100 years is too long? Who created this system of defining how things have to be? It looks to me like we did.
> I once hated the RC church.
I don’t hate Devin or the RC church. I have talked for days with Devin and read and listened to a bazillion things.
> hostile
I don’t interpret them as hostile. I am also not hostile. I am passionate. About Jesus. About freedom. About life. I hate distractions, the enemy’s divisions, misinformation, people who take their eye off the ball. I hate to waste time. I love to see God at work transforming lives.
Jeff responding to Jeff Simmons (last one)
ReplyDelete> consider the RC church may be the one that Christ built
I have considered it. I have done so again. Noted. I have a mission field. I have accountability for myself and my family. You have yourself and your mission field and accountability and Devin has his. How can 2 well meaning people end up on different ends of this question? Must one of us be wrong? I think the answer is yes, at least one of us must be wrong. I accept that I am likely wrong (according to God’s perfect knowledge) on some large number of important questions. How do we answer who is wrong? We mature in Christ, as Christ leads us. We question everything. But, we don’t get caught up in the thorns of questioning everything. Some questions are best tabled or filed away. Our goal is to produce fruit. We know enough to do that. That is my whole point in responding originally. If we’re caught in thorns, we get eaten by the lion or choked such that we don’t produce fruit. I hate to see that happen. I am free of the thorns of these struggles. I want others to find that freedom, too. IMHO, putting your faith in the RC church is not necessary and may be dangerous or at least a distraction.
Dear Jeff
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. You are obviously a very sincere follower of Christ. I did not mention this in my post but I wanted to let you know I am not a Catholic yet. I spent the last 8 or 9 months studying Roman Catholicism and made the decision to become Catholic about a month ago. Classes begin in September and run through about April.
I am convinced the best way to help people see the truth is to understand what they believe and then to find ways to help them see things from a different perspective. I am almost finished writing the first section of my book, “Searching For The Truth.” The first section is directed toward atheists. I have spent the last several years doing a great deal of study on the subject of atheism. I discovered the biggest challenge I had was not to merely refute atheism but rather to find a way to explain in very clear language why atheism is at a fundamental level irrational. Communication is always the biggest challenge.
Based on your comments I am inspired to find ways to communicate the truth of Catholicism in a way that people can understand. This is not an easy task because people often have misconceptions of what Catholicism actually teaches. Prior to knowing Devin I was as anti-Catholic as a person could possibly be. I had read dozens of books by people like Lorraine Boettner, Dave Hunt and many others. It took a lot of study and a lot of anguish and pain for me to finally admit that I was wrong.
I plan to print out your post and use it when I get to section three of my book. Your comments are great.
I do feel obligated to tell you one more thing. I only mention this so you are not mislead by anything I have said. Despite what you may have heard it is not true that Catholicism teaches that Protestants are automatically going to heaven. This is the reason I find it so important to point people toward the Catholic Church. Catholicism does not teach the doctrine of once saved always saved. They believe a Christian can fall away and be lost. This is why it is so important to know whether or not the Catholic Church is really the Church that Christ built.
Jeff Simmons
Dear Jeff
ReplyDeleteOne more thing. When I say I plan to use your comments I merely mean the concepts you present. I have no plans to violate your privacy by giving your comments vertatim.
Jeff Simmons
There is no privacy here - this is a public blog ;-)
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you use of mine. I'm doing my best, but alas, a poor job of communicating.
I apologize to all for the disconnected replies. I'm not brief, I am passionate, and the blog only allows 4096 characters, which I didn't find an easy way to count in word, so replying was a problem.
I appreciate the charity and gentleness. I am not angry. I have spent a few days praying for peace for me, and peaceful responses from me. God doesn't need me cutting anyone's ear off with my sword. I prayed today that I had not made things worse.
My statement about protestants going to heaven was a general touch on a very complicated subject that I have spent a ton of time discussing with Devin about and learning about. We are all, even the best among us, saved by grace through faith. None of us deserves it. There's no magic club I can join or thing I can do one time that guarantees my ticket to heaven. I think protestants and RCs both endanger folks giving false hope in this area in different ways.
As I said several times, these discussions. Never. End. There are always more rabbit trails and more interconnected pieces.
I learned something key yesterday in reading through replies here that I'm still waiting for God to incubate in me to help me reply profitably.
Thanks for the conversation. Sorry to be overwhelming and haphazard.
Jeff
Adding onto Jeff Simmons' reply to the other Jeff,
ReplyDeleteYour paradigm seems to be "personal illumination by the Holy Spirit." In other words, you believe you know divine truth, and the books of the Bible, because the Holy Spirit has shown you (illuminated you) that they are true. You have experienced their truth in your life, and so you hold fast to the Bible and to the belief that the Spirit is speaking directly to you regularly.
Hence, though you may not know where the Bible came from exactly, you know you were given a Bible with particular books in it and have experienced God's truth from them. And so you are afraid of "adding" anything onto that because that other stuff might be wrong/idolatrous.
I would say, do a thought experiment with a Christian who believes in the (fictitious) Two-Gospel Bible. He accepts as inspired John and Mark. He accepts no other books in the Bible. But from those books, he learns of Christ, of His love, of His sacrifice, and he believes in God. When you and he talk, you try to show him that, while what he believes has much good and truth in it, he is also missing out on even more! He's missing all of Paul's inspired writings, on fellowship in the church (he doesn't go to a church because he doesn't see that emphasized in Mark and John's gospels), and he celebrates the Lord's Supper just with himself (also he baptized himself).
He is afraid of "adding" anything because he is unsure whether it is true or not. Paul wasn't even one of the original Apostles, so he is wary of his writings.
You get the idea. Now, sure you can say "great! I'd leave him alone, let him do his thing. God can reveal something to him if He wants." But the point is that this friend is missing out on much, and has significant errors mixed up with truth, which cause him to be led astray, and we know God wants him to be free in the truth.
But if he says "God shows me this is true," then an impasse ensues, because both of you claim that God reveals truth to you and those truths are conflicting. This is where reason can be employed to help resolve the differences. You both believe. Great! And so within that shared belief, you can work together to reason.
Dear Jeff
ReplyDeleteThank you for allowing me to make use of the issues you raise. I believe you said that Catholics have the obligation to prove they are right. This may not be totally true but I personally feel that way. I take that perspective very seriously. That is why I think your commentary is so valuable. By seriously meditating on your comments I can grow in my own understanding and can learn how to be a better communicator.
I know you feel your thoughts are a bit disconnected but don’t worry about that. It is difficult to put such deep thoughts into words with so little time and when the subject is so vast. I understand what you are communicating. I also hate getting sucked into rabbit holes. In fact, that is exactly why I decided to write a book. Most discussions about Christianity have no context. I have never seen a book that starts from square one and covers all of the basic issues that will ultimately lead someone to Jesus Christ.
I got the idea by meditating on how to present the truth to my wife. Before becoming a Christian I was a Baha’i. Suffice it to say that Baha’i’s are essentially an offshoot of Islam. My wife is still a Baha’i.
The problem with presenting Christianity to most people, especially people like my wife, is that they are already indoctrinated with certain religious concepts. So everything you say is understood through that grid. I spent years talking with people about these issues and it finally dawned on me that it was pointless to go down endless rabbit trails. I decided I needed to start at the beginning and build brick by brick. As I was building brick by brick I came across Devin’s podcasts and quickly realized my own concept of Christianity was built on a faulty foundation. The only real basis for knowing the Bible is the word of God is through historical continuity. No need to go down any rabbit trails. The concept is very simple. The Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. 1 Tim 3:14-15
Jeff Simmons